Creatives Like Us Podcast - Ep:12 Nkem Ekwukoma
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No More Gatekeeping: Law, Business and Doing Things Differently
In this episode, Ange talks to Nkem Ekwukoma, a lawyer who’s doing things very differently. Nkem is the founder of The Legal Storyteller, where she helps small business owners, especially women and people of colour, understand and manage the legal side of their work in a way that actually makes sense. No jargon, no intimidation, just clear, creative support that gives people confidence. She’s not interested in gatekeeping or ticking boxes – she wants legal literacy to be something everyone can access, and she’s built a business around making that happen.
Nkem shares how burnout, being overlooked, and trying to set up a scarf business in Nigeria during lockdown all played a part in her decision to change direction. We talk about the challenges of being a Black woman in law, the power of storytelling, and how she’s using workshops, live case studies, and LinkedIn Learning to reach people who’d usually be shut out of legal spaces. If you’ve ever felt like legal advice wasn’t built for you, this conversation is a refreshing, honest reminder that it can be.
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Links for Nkem
LinkedIn – Nkem Ekwukoma on LinkedIn
(Connect and follow her professional updates.)
Instagram – @thelegalstoryteller
(Behind-the-scenes, legal tips, and creative insights.)
Website – thelegalstoryteller.co.uk
(Contact info, newsletter sign-up, and services overview.)
Newsletter – Legal Stories
(Sign up via her website to get updates and insights direct to your inbox.)
The Stack World – Legal Up Club
(Community and free legal clinics – currently hosted on The Stack World, with plans to move to Patreon.)
LinkedIn Learning –
(Search “Nkem Ekwukoma” on LinkedIn Learning to find her video training courses, including:
Legal Jargon Explained
Business Tips for Non-Lawyers
How to Instruct a Lawyer
Join us for the:
Creatives Like Us EVENT
A collaborative knowledge sharing and networking event for Black and Brown Creatives who run their own businesses
Thursday 19th June 2025
16.30 - 8.30 pm, London
Tickets are available here:
https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/creatives-like-us-event-june-25-tickets-1313658390609
Links for Angela
This podcast is hosted by Angela Lyons of Lyons Creative.
If you have any questions or suggestions or would like to be featured on this podcast, please email angela@lyonscreative.co.uk
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Links for Heather
Produced by award-winning media and marketing specialist Heather Pownall of Heather's Media Hub
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Chapters/Timestamp
Introduction to Inkem and Her Creative Journey
Navigating Challenges in the Legal Profession
The Birth of The Legal Storyteller
Championing Legal Literacy and Community Engagement
Navigating Challenges in the Legal Profession
Future Aspirations and Advice for the Younger Self
Transcript
Angela: [00:00:00] Hi and welcome to creators like Us, and today I'm talking to income. I can't wait to for you to hear her and hear her stories, so let's just jump in and talk to Income. Hi, in income, how are you today? Hi. I'm good. I'm good. It's um, a great day. Good to be alive. Really is. Even though it's gray outside, inside, you know, it's all warm.
And thank you for joining me today. I know it's your precious time, so I truly grateful for that.
Nkem: Thank you for having me.
Angela: So why don't we start by telling people what kind of creative are you?
Nkem: Okay. So I guess I have referred to myself as a creative, dressed up as a lawyer because I'm a lawyer in terms of trade, but I guess I'm creative in in what I do.
So I'm the founder of the legal storyteller, which is a business that I set up to help small business owners, particularly those from marginalized communities, women, people of color. To be able to navigate the landscape of their, the legal landscape, of their business. And so I do this in a, a [00:01:00] much more, I guess, creative way than traditional law in that I use a, a variety of tools.
So I have free tools, which are like workshops and training aids. And in my workshops I use characters to try and illustrate. Certain points like take action to her. Who is somebody who, she's doing well in her business and she likes to take a chance. Sorry, take a chance to her. She likes to take a chance in things, all things law, simply because she thinks, Hey, I've got common sense.
How hard is it? Sometimes comes unstuck and then her friend can't do it. Cassandra and she.
Can't do it. Cassandra, she is someone who is, you know, she's scared, law invokes fear, and she likes to go into analysis paralysis, and she's often in a position where she'd rather do nothing than. Make a mistake and so I, I use legal concepts and then apply those to these [00:02:00] individuals. And so just showing how going too far one way or other gets you unstuck and then you are still learning.
So it makes it a lot more interesting and engaging. So I like to do that. And even the way that I provide legal support is I avoid, um, just, oh, I need a contract being done. The problem is people are not legally literate. I think legal literacy really needs to be a thing. Um, it's not a thing and it's something that holds businesses back.
I'm not trying to say become a lawyer, a qualified lawyer or anything like that, but rather if you are able to understand certain legal concepts, it's gonna put you in a better place. It means that you're not spending money on law and lawyers unnecessarily, and I say this not to steal business from lawyers, but I feel it actually optimizes the experience.
Small business owners and also for, for the law firms as well. It, it, it means that people, business owners are stopping doing the equivalent of taking their their [00:03:00] car to a. A mechanic when all they need to do is take it to a petrol station and fill it up with petrol. That is what I'm seeing being done.
And why? 'cause they dunno. Even if you dunno how to drive, people know that you take your car to the petrol station to fill it out with petrol. If it, it's showing empty, you don't take it to a mechanic. A mechanic could do it for you, but it's gonna cost you. And it's a waste of their time, and that's what's happening now.
And so I, that's a great analogy. Thank you. So yeah, I, I, people don't just have a contract. I spend time with you to understand what you're trying to do, what's your goals, and it's valuable time because I'm learning about you, and you get to be coached as well through the posters of learning understanding about you.
A week or so later, you get what I call legal storybook, which is this digital tool which has various things within it that help you to understand your legal risks. You have playbooks because I also look at your contracts and if you have them, if you don't, I can [00:04:00] prepare contracts for you. And then you have playbooks which help you to negotiate.
On your contracts, if someone's like, I don't wanna pay in this term, you've got a, a pushback, a fallback position where you could either say, okay, I can move to this. Or you say, sorry, this is where I am. You understand your deal breakers generally in business, how to relationship manage. And there's, you know, depending on the nature of the business, I provide things like maybe a cease and desist letter that they can use.
So you literally have one client said a.
Angela: Yeah, brilliant. It doesn't
Nkem: mean that you'll never need a lawyer again. It just means that you are able to, you know, build in managing legal risk on your day to day. It's not something over there that, okay, I now need a lawyer. They're so expensive and it's like, yeah, the reason why it's expensive as, okay, if we use the analogy of the mechanic, if you leave things till it's like, oh my gosh, I've just broken down.
Run down to the
Angela: ground, run down to the grounds, and then you just think that's when it's, that's when expensive, isn't it?
Nkem: Absolutely. And it's the same [00:05:00] with law. I think a lot of services actually, you know, potentially if you leave it too long or when you are in dire straits, it's gonna cost more so
Angela: way.
It's great that you're the playbook to give them game, give them confidence in their legal issues, and, and also it is a playbook. I'm not saying that it's a fun thing, but you, you've turned it round into something that. Could be something not that they're not scared of. Yes. And they can, um, access it quite easily, so it's not too scary.
And it's also in their, in their hands too. So it's not hidden away in a filing cabinet in a lawyer's office somewhere. It's actually given to them and they can refer back to it. So That's, that's great. It's brilliant. Yeah. So, yeah. I love the names of your avatars. Thank you. That's really cool. What made you come up with, um, storytelling?
Because obviously the legal storyteller was there, was there something that you'd always loved telling stories or is it just, um, that you came up with the idea and thought, oh, I can see it as a legal storyteller? Gosh, um,
Nkem: this, it's a roundabout way to be honest. I was trying to leave law, so, oh really? If you're ready for this story.
I was trying to leave law. [00:06:00] I'd had enough. I was burnt out. I was fed up being like, I guess undermined, not seeing people who look like me and. I was ready to, to leave the law, and so I had my in tandem with that, have loads and loads of pina and scarves and, and things like that. And I wanted something that reflected my culture.
I'm Nigerian and I couldn't find it, and so I thought Ham be the change that you wanted. Want to see? Right. And I started ideating and you know, as I said, I'm a creative, dressed up as a lawyer and I had all these concepts and, and stuff. And I even found somebody who was the coach for African businesses, you know, for for business, specifically fashion.
'cause this is what it was going to be. And I wanted to go to Nigeria because I needed to find people who would help me, you know, to make the scarves. Wow. And yeah, so I'd reached out to somebody who was like an Australian Nigerian who [00:07:00] had moved back to Nigeria, was doing really well. And she came back to me and was saying, these, the artisans that I used.
And I was like, wow, thank you. Why are you helping me? And she said, well, nobody wanted to help me. A lot of people gatekeepers was, were gatekeeper when she started out and she didn't wanna be that person. But I had to go to Nigeria. What
Angela: isn't that good? Coming back into the world, if you put good out,
Nkem: comes back to
Angela: wow.
Nkem: Absolutely phenomenal. Yeah, so the year that I was going to Nigeria was 2020, and I went just before lockdown and got stuck in Nigeria. My God couldn't, I couldn't get to actually see the artisans or meet this wonderful lady because the whole world shut down and had to be repatriated back. And so then was like, what do I do?
What do I do to try and get help? I still, you know, I thought it was a logistics challenge. So I entered into this incubator where a business incubator, which was US based, but it had people from the us, from Africa, from from the uk. It was amazing, [00:08:00] this cohort of, of women who we'd have, we had seven different coaches that would give us a call.
Angela: Do you wanna name, do you wanna name the, the incubator? Yes.
Nkem: Purpose to platform, although it's, it's been discontinued, unfortunately. Really. I think she's done other things. She, she's got some other things that she does. Yeah. Which, you know, it was amazing. It did a few cohorts, but, but the thing is, we're still connected.
Everyone is still, it was such a great, that's great. Yeah, the, the energy, 'cause everyone wanted everyone else to win and there's an ideation session, so I was like, I can't believe you're a lawyer. You're really down to earth and straightforward. And I was coming up with ideas. I wasn't talking law at all because that's not what I came in for.
You came in to talk about your scarves and everything else and so, um, I think there was a competition that you had to raise $1,000 in the set period. I prayed and said, God,
Angela: help me.
Nkem: You know what? What can I do? At the same time, I was like, do you know what? I'm gonna do a training session for you guys, because there were concerns about [00:09:00] law, and I did the training session and I, it was through the praying and stuff that the concept of the legal storyteller, what I'm doing now, came up and God had given me the name, the legal storyteller, which I thought was childish, and I didn't actually call it the legal storyteller at that time.
Didn't listen. I didn't listen. I called it Stand in the Gap because I stand in the gap between no advice and paid advice. You can laugh. So that's what I called it. The, the training session over 50 women attended and someone reached out and said, when you do it again, I'll pay. My coach said, I know you wanna do this fashion thing, which is great, but you have no experience and business is hard and maybe you would want to.
You know, start a business in an area that you are familiar to cut your teeth on that. And so obviously with the, the praying and getting the God download, because I remember writing so quickly and it was like, this is great. It was, I still look at my journal like, wow. Even though I decided to. Try [00:10:00] and do my own thing for a bit.
That's how it came about. I wasn't actually trying to continue doing law, but did this training session for free. People said, wow, this is great. You know, how do I do this again? I, and I tried to start to developing it, launched a legal club, which is where I had my, you know, can't do it. Cassandra. Yeah. The, the whole, the legal storyteller thing I thought was childish.
And I'd still, when I changed the name stand in the gap, 'cause people kept saying, stand in the gap. Oh, you mean. Yeah, like Mind the Gap. Mind the gap. And it was like, oh, no, no, that, no. And then I, I still wanted it to sound something, and I tried to buy legally as a domain, which was about 26,000 pounds. My gosh.
So I thought, okay, let me put an I in the name legally. So people were like, oh, Lily. Oh no. Oh no. Yeah, so that, that was an epic fo So I went back to my journal and um, I thought, you know what? This is actually [00:11:00] really good. Lemme tried the legal storyteller. And since then, it's like people, that's interesting.
It's all, you know, he knows what he knows. He knows, you know. Exactly. And so that's, that's the roundabout
Angela: story of how the legal story. And look at that. It's a story and it's a, it's a story.
Nkem: What a great story. It's a story itself. Yeah. But I still, I've put a pin in the, you know, the scarf because I, I still want that.
I know what I wanna do
Angela: there. Yeah, you can always come back to it or continue it along the line, but when you're. You know, you're developing legal storyteller. You started legal storyteller. I mean, I mean that's another thing you could tell us about what you're up to right now with, um, the legal storyteller.
'cause I know that you've delivered training sessions, you've set it up as a fully fledged business now. So, so where are you now with that?
Nkem: Oh, thank you. Uh, yeah, so I do a combination of things. Um, do training sessions just 'cause one of the things that. I really passionate about is championing legal literacy.
Like I [00:12:00] said, it needs to be a thing, but then how, and so I do, uh, training sessions with the British Library, which are free. And you Thank you. Thank you. That's a great name to have in your cv, the British Library. Wow. Absolutely. And they're so supportive. Um, to the extent that an event that I launched at the British Library legal storyteller live.
Wow was, they were trying to find out, well, what else can you do? And in my free legal club, I do legal clinics and they said, oh, what about live case studies? And the legal storyteller live was born. And, and may I add, thank you so much for being one of my guests in the, the last legal storyteller live and it's, it's a great way.
To encourage community learning, so it's not just the lawyer that's telling you you need to do this, although I'm not that type of lawyer, but it's just great to see. There's someone who's like me, who's a business owner, and they've been through this particular issue and they've come through the other side, and [00:13:00] so it's just real life case studies.
Insights of what they would've done, you know, differently and and so on. Yeah.
Angela: Yeah. And the audience were really, um, really good and really receptive and lots of asking lots of questions because they were real businesses and they all had issues. I mean, there was people online too, you know. It was a really good way just to spread that word online and in person.
And yeah, it was also good. I actually thought it was a nice, really. Good space to also network to meet other businesses there. And um, so yeah, that was, um, really impressive. So thank you again for asking me, but you're most welcome. It really, really good. The, all the props go to you for setting it up and just getting yourself out there.
And it was just again, British Library. That is impressive. But yeah, sorry, I'd let you continue. So you're doing free workshops, what else are you doing?
Nkem: Yeah, what you doing? I'm a LinkedIn learning author, so I've got some videos on LinkedIn learning for people to share the show notes for those. Thank you.
And as I said, I, I do free, I have a free legal clinic, which is called 30 Minute Thursdays, and it's literally just to help entrepreneurs. Sometimes you just have a quick [00:14:00] question and there isn't really anywhere for you to go to ask that quick question without setting up a, you know, a session. And I, in my early years I had volunteered at a law center and I've also been a.
And the thing with those organizations is that they're more catered to personal housing, family immigration, these sorts of things, not really your business. And so I just wanted it to be a safe space to just ask a question and I often am signposting or it's like, oh, there's, you can go to the HMRC website.
There's this information, you know, at least saying maybe you need to do this or not. That quick, sharp direction to go one way over another way. I do that. So, sorry. And then I,
Angela: yeah, I'm sorry. Go on, Carol. No, I was gonna say the 30 minutes, I'm just outta outta curiosity. The 30 minutes, is that online or is that someone they email you a question?
Or is it a link? Is it a LinkedIn Live
or,
Nkem: sorry. Yes, it's, it's online. It's online in, um, [00:15:00] I have a club. In the stack world, which is this platform that encourages community. You can set up communities and I guess I set up a community, it's called Legal Up. I'm considering moving it just so that there just for accessibility, access a great platform, I have to say.
But I think there are certain things I'm trying to build in to make sure that. There are, uh, resources are way more accessible. And so I may be moving to Patreon, um, later, later this year. Yeah, that, but that's, that's pretty much free at this point in time because I guess that's part of my give back. I realize I've always been someone that does some sort of give back and.
I, I would want that to always remain free, that ability to learn. I don't want a gatekeeper like, like the lady who had shared that information for nothing.
Angela: Yeah. Yeah.
Nkem: If I'm championing legal literacy at this point in time to charge for it, it seems counterproductive.
Angela: It's great that you're paying back.
It's great [00:16:00] that you're paying back and paying back to certain communities and certain, um, businesses, but. I think it's also good that you have to look after yourself too. And also you've got to pay the bills. So Paton is also, so Pat, there could be a tier system, couldn't there? Whereas, um, yes, yes, I know.
I'm thinking about that. You could pay, pay what you can and then obviously people can pay a bit more, give that that platform too. So yeah, it's, um, but it's lovely that you are giving back, especially for, as she said, legal. Literacy is something that people, you know, they're not gonna be into it every day or they're not.
They're gonna be scared of it. So it's great that you are giving back and giving it back creatively too. So,
Nkem: yes. Great. Yeah, exactly. Great. I mean, the Patreon thing, I, yeah, I, I was just kind of conscious that there are the tier and like I do training sessions, as I said, and so. The recordings I make available for a certain amount of time just because of managing, you know, the, those recordings.
Yeah.
Nkem: Potentially it might be you can access everything, you know. Yeah. If you on a paid tier. But yeah, that's something I'm, I'm definitely [00:17:00] considering and, and obviously I have paid services as well, and like I said earlier, I. Provide them in a, in a different way. So it's, it just means that your time invested reaps over and over the rewards, your time investment and your money investment.
You are essentially spending way less in a concentrated period of time to then get an output that keeps giving in a nutshell. So.
Angela: Oh, so just going back to your LinkedIn work there, you said you're a LinkedIn trainer. Could you just tell me a little bit more about that? Because I think one, LinkedIn is one of those platforms that I think all businesses should be on, especially, or small businesses, but it's good to know.
Could you tell me a little bit more about that?
Nkem: Yeah, so, um, I. I guess a link LinkedIn learning author, which means that I have three at this point, LinkedIn learning videos and I was actually introduced by my coach to these guys who create these videos for LinkedIn Learning and they, I guess they are my in, in that they know what [00:18:00] good looks like in terms of format, the presentation of it.
Obviously it experts in know what works. Um. I was really confused when my coach had sent the email because she hadn't told me so I just thought, huh, and they thought the same because they'd looked at my LinkedIn and seen, yeah, she's a lawyer, she's headed up teams, and what, what? Which was then a sign for me to actually change my LinkedIn profile because it was talking so much of my 20 plus years experiences working as a commercial lawyer for SE 100 companies, you know?
Um. Highlight more the fact that Oh yeah, I'm also the founder of the legal storyteller. And so once they had a, you know, they were asking, well, what else do you do? And when I explained and spoke about my characters, they were, okay, yeah, yeah, I get it. I get it. Yeah. And so they, they, um, they were, so, they were then saying, well, what sort of training do you do in your club?
And I obviously had been doing loads of training, so I was like, I've done this, I've done this. [00:19:00] So many ideas.
Angela: Yeah, there you go. You gotta tell people about it. How are they gonna know? It's all in your mind and like all of your, you know. That's great. That's brilliant that you told 'em about it and what they create the videos for you alongside.
Yeah.
Nkem: I had to go to their studios, but basically I, there were some ideas that they, I guess, were my ideal clients in the, the, we wanna know about this, we wanna know about that we, you know, and so I came up with a list of ideas and some of obviously repurposing what I've done, and then they came up with a short list.
Sent onto LinkedIn who were like, yeah, you can go ahead and record. And so I had to write out these scripts. You know, it has to be, if you notice with LinkedIn learning, they, their videos are not like 50 hours long or, or you know, they have little segments chapter Yeah. Like the little sort of, yeah, yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. And so I had a word count I had, you know, that I had to do. So the hardest part [00:20:00] was writing, not because I didn't have the knowledge, but I had to package it in my way, but in a way that fit within the word limits. And so that was the hardest part. They had said that because I was thinking, no, the recording, huh?
Recording was fun. Recording was so good. Enjoyed that. Yeah, I really, I really enjoyed that. And then it was the waiting game as to, you know, LinkedIn learning, then do their own bits maybe that they need to check with legal and whomever before then posting. Um, and yeah, so it was. It was a great experience.
I hope that maybe I'll get to do more, but yeah, I, it was like those three as a batch and it's novel way, great content and also
Angela: a good way for people to find out about you. So that's great content. Absolutely,
Nkem: yeah. And it's global as well, which is the thing I've forgotten. So there've been people, someone in China, someone in Israel, like have reached out and said
Angela: thank you.
You know, which is great
Nkem: disclaimer saying that obviously there may be differences.[00:21:00]
Angela: Yeah.
Nkem: Always that basic legal advice in your own country. Absolutely. 'cause it's guidance, it's, it's educational, but there are some things that are fundamental, like, uh, uh, I did a jargon explain legal jargon, explained, for example, and business tips for non-lawyers, you know, and so they're just things to be aware of.
Um, I'm trying to remember what the, the third one is. Oh, no worries. How to, how to instruct a lawyer may have been the one, but again, it was just. These are, they're fundamentals that you, whether you're an employee or a large organization, or you are a small business owner, these are all things that apply.
Mm-hmm. And just made it digestible for them.
Angela: One of my questions that I, um, love asking the guests is, um, how did you get into a certain place? So for example, you started law and legal work, and I call it the catalyst connection. Was there someone that you, did you wake up the know from school and say, I wanna be a lawyer?
Or was it someone that you put you in a path of a certain direction? So it sounds [00:22:00] like, sounds like one of the catalysts was the, on the group, uh, incubator was the. The people inside the group that said, um, you should go into the legal story. So, but I'm thinking right back from when you first started doing law and was there someone that inspired you and just was like, said to you, go for it, or said to you, you should think about this.
Or was it another message from God that you didn't
Nkem: No, it was, it was always like a version. Okay. So there were a couple of things. So within my family, my immediate family, there's a lot of people in science, although my brother was a pharmacist, my older brother anyway was pharmacist. My mom, a pharmacy technician, my dad biochemist.
Oh wow. And I,
Angela: I,
Nkem: I didn't really wanna go that way. And I actually wanted to be a journalist. That was what I wanted to be. And. As a child of Nigerian parents, there's a say, which I don't receive, but there's, it's like you either can be a doctor, a lawyer, or disgrace. Oh my gosh. I've not heard that one before.
Yeah, yeah. Don't, don't, don't, don't hold onto it. But I, and my parents didn't say that, but [00:23:00] I have heard Nigerian say it. And the sentiment is that they want you to be in something that is solid. That I get it. It's, it's that ensuring that you have a way forward. That is, that supports you economically, you know it's stable.
And then there's also that kudos of saying, my is a.
Obviously it's not just a doctor or lawyer, but anything established like that. And so being creative is like in your own time or get your whatever it is first. Yeah. And so I just was like, I wanted to be a journalist and my mom gently encouraged me away from that because yeah, it's not stable, it's not this, it's not an ounce like.
I'm not doing sciences, and at that time, giving away my age. Um, I was so into LA law, I was like, I
Angela: can do this.
Nkem: You know? I loved, remember, do you remember the saxophone at the beginning? I was like, I played the saxophone. I had to play the [00:24:00] saxophone. I actually wanted to play the saxophone as well, and I ended up playing the trombone.
Another story. Yeah. And, and stop a lot of wins. A lot of wins. I, I was concerned about, who's that? There's an artist who's got massive cheeks and I, the vanity stopped me. Even though, is it pride? It even older than that, I don't think, I mean. Are we talking about maybe Louis Armstrong? Louis Armstrong.
Armstrong, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was like, he plays the trombone. I'm only small. So yeah, basically I just thought, and I was on the debating team at, um, during my A Levels, and I remember at the time it was near the elections. And mps came into the school and there was, I think it was the ems, um, their rep, we, we chewed him up with, with our questions, you know, and he walked off.
I'm good at this. You know, there were, there were valid questions that we had that they couldn't answer. And I, I, we we're teenagers. You are a grown man [00:25:00] and. The other reps. He walked off. He walked off. Yeah. Wow. And so I brought that in mind and I thought I'd be a lawyer.
Nkem: And that was it. It was so LA Law, perhaps being a member, you know, on the debating team.
During my A Levels, I'm making an, and here I'm and here you're Wick. Brilliant. Brilliant. Yeah. And not wanting to do anything science related. But interestingly, I'm just thinking because I wanted to be a journalist. I loved English. Here we are. Storytelling. There you go. Look at that connection.
Angela: There you go.
It's full circle. There. Brilliant. Just being a woman of color. Did you face any challenges going into the legal world, especially in the uk? If you wanna share, you can share, if not Yeah, I totally understand. If you don't feel comfortable sharing,
Nkem: absolutely. I mean, it took me ages to get a training contract.
I think they've changed the name of whatever it is now. The vocational part when I, when I, no, I think it's still called a training contract when you, so after I did. My degree and then I had to do the post-grad piece. I couldn't get a training [00:26:00] contract. To be fair, it is really competitive and I feel sorry for people trying to, to enter.
Now, I had experienced when I was qualified, maybe a surprise or not an expectation. So I remember being to events where. I think someone had assumed that and there's no shade to secretaries that maybe I was a secretary or pa and it was one of those where you're just thinking, how do
Angela: I,
Nkem: how do I say, you know, so is that sort of being underestimated?
Um, or unexpected? And then certainly I have had to code switch. And it's not to say that I speak any type of way, but I'm hypervigilant of my blackness having often been the only one. In a team. So that's certainly something. And then when I say co switch,
Angela: I was just gonna ask, what's
Nkem: co
Angela: switch? What? What's that?
Nkem: I'm quite a direct person, but I've had to often like maybe sugarcoat the way I say something, rather [00:27:00] than just saying, that's wrong because of X, Y, and Z. It'd be like, oh, maybe you would want to consider doing something this way. And the reason why I've had to is because people have, I've had feedback and I realized that in itself was a toxicity.
Toxic relationship where I've had a manager who was just like, oh, in the meeting, so and so was upset, and I was thinking, I'm sorry, what? And this was a, this was a particular meeting where I was quiet and I didn't have anything to say, and I had actually not wanted to be at the meeting because I had these deadlines.
And so I was quiet and I asked one question and the person upset was a man. And I was like, I, I don't, I, I only asked one question, how does that work? How does that. I up raising points for one question. It's, and it was something that I kept quiet for a long time and one of my best friends is an employment lawyer.
We were at university together and so she has a different lens. I'm a business lawyer and I, I get that. Employment lawyers see some things a lot differently because they're used to [00:28:00] looking for certain clues and and keys, and she was seeing what I, I guess, was unwilling to see, because I work in this company and we've worked with and it's just like, yeah, being looked over for promotion or being told that not I can't promote you, but not actually given reasons and me just thinking I didn't wanna rock the boat and not ask you do these things at the time.
Just, just to
Angela: get on, don't we just, yeah. Afterwards we reflect. Yeah, which is sad. Just carry on, isn't it? And I
Nkem: mean, I guess the good thing is I mentor and it's sad that 20 plus years later, black lawyers are going through similar things. Same similar things. But the good thing is that I'm able to say, no, no, you're not going mad.
You're probably right. And here's what I would suggest you do. Whereas I didn't, I mean, I had my mate, but I was thinking I was, I'm a recovering people pleaser. So I, I guess I felt the weight [00:29:00] of. Being black, being the only one and didn't want to destroy it for anybody else, you know, whereas it's like that I'm not a monolith, you know, it should be open to people.
I remember one time I headed up a team and I was recruiting a lawyer, um, an even lawyer to my team. The best candidate was a black woman. I remember the fear inside of me because I wanted to fight for her, but I didn't want it to look like, oh, it's because she's black, which is ridiculous. Bearing in mind that there we were in the minor minority anyway, so it wasn't like, I don't know, but that was in my head and I had to work this argument in my head as to if there were any challenges to her, and I wasn't going to speak up and say, she's the best candidate.
I was gonna listen. I had to strategize to really work that out. Yeah. Yeah. Thankfully she was like, oh, we think so and so, but that's trash that I had to be in that position. 'cause all I was considering was she's the best candidate.
Angela: Yeah. But then you put all these other things 'cause she's black, you put all these other things in your [00:30:00] mind to say, oh my gosh, they might start testing me because of this.
Or asking me. Yeah.
Great.
Nkem: And it was one of the reasons why I wanted to leave law was because one, I was working crazy hours. Two, uh, I'd been undermined and you know, um. And to the extent that it affected my health. Yeah. I, I was just like, I think, I think I need to perhaps look at other things and, and I had in the preceding years been thinking, oh, law isn't the be all and end all of me.
I kept saying it all the time and then realized, why do you keep saying this in Kim? You know, why stop. Okay, listen to yourself. Why do you keep saying this? And I felt that there was more. For me, because it was so hard getting to be a qualified lawyer, that it was like that was my goal. And then once I got there, what's your next goal?
It was just like, oh, I'm so busy. But I knew. I knew that I was a creative, I knew that there was always inside of you. Yeah, it's
Nkem: always been inside of me. I mean, I remember when I was [00:31:00] younger, my friends bought me an interior design course. It was like, thank you. This was such a great gift. Why? And they were like, what do you mean why?
Look at your house, look at your, you know, it was just puts I like, I use the term called utility beauty with utility. I like things to look good, but then also be functional and. I don't know. It was just so, it was a surprise that people were paying attention perhaps, you know? But I, I've always known, I mean, there's a booking me as well, so there's all these things from a creative aspect that I, maybe that was why, but I wasn't doing anything about it.
And I think this probably the steps of me being signed off twice. You know, once in two different organizations, unfortunately, suffering a miscarriage, one of those, sorry. That's all right. And then dealing with, I'm saying it, I'm not saying that's all to, to brush it off. I'm now in a position that I can actually talk about it because I, I couldn't before because it was quite traumatic, but it was all connected, you know?
And I feel that I got that breaking point and that, and maybe it was God involved, [00:32:00] where sometimes you are not listening to the little nudges. Yeah, sure. Oprah said something about that, that you get little bricks thrown at your head and then you are ignoring it, and then the whole wall falls on you and then you gotta do something.
And, and I think that's. I probably misquoted her badly, but I remember hearing that and thinking, yeah, yeah,
Angela: I know that's me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, and here you are today. Here I'm today a bright, beautiful personality inking. Thank you. You really are. You really are. You're such a joy to talk to, um, like her and.
I'd love to know what the future holds, maybe, or what future projects. What would be your dream project that you'd love to work on, or you can tell me about something that's coming up in the future. What's, you can manifest.
Nkem: I, right? Yeah, it's true. It's true. I would love for legal literacy to not just be in the uk.
Everyone needs to be legally literate. Literate. Even I think about financial literacy. It didn't used to be a thing, and I say a thing, you know, it didn't used to be a thing. It's got a [00:33:00] ways to go. But it is now there. And I would love to be part of the catalyst to make sure that this is something that everyone in the world over.
And I guess I feel that way, particularly having been part of that cohort, which was an international one, all of these business owners or, you know, trying to be business owners or suffering from the same issue. And so I'd love to be part of that, you know? So that's a big vision that I, I have. That's big that I'd love that to come to.
Angela: Yeah. Well round up, um, by asking you, what would you tell your teenage self?
Nkem: Ooh, so I should know this already. What would I tell my teenage age? Self Wow. I think don't stop being, you. Don't stop being, you don't, don't, don't hide your light for others. Think as a teenager I believed that I could do anything.
I was, you know, like I had a lot of energy and I think that kind of dimmed a bit. In [00:34:00] becoming a lawyer, you know, in, in the last few years. But I think that energy that I had, that I'm, I'm coming back to that. And so I would say keep being you. Don't hide your light. You know, you are not, you are not a wrong person.
You are not a bad person. Hold that light. Don't do it.
Angela: Brilliant.
Nkem: That's lovely.
Angela: That's wonderful. Hold the light. Love that. You are welcome. Our last question is the quick fire five. Adam, you have to answer one or the other, so I'm gonna ask you, um, CRISPR chocolates. Ooh Crisps Beach or Forest Forest book or Kindle Regale, soul pat or a sandwich.
Pat your face. Oh, I don't, I feel like a sandwich.
Nkem: I feel like I need to explain some of these things, but Oh, these are good. Yeah. I love a patty. Ooh. [00:35:00] Especially in cocoa bread
Angela: also. You could have a Patty's sandwich. Exactly. Brilliant, lovely. So thank you so much and Ken for joining me. I love chatting to you.
I love hearing your story. Brilliant story and great that you continued that name in your business. Thank you. Can you tell people where they can find you? And of course I like the, um, all the links in the show notes and everything, but, um, if you wanna tell people
Nkem: Yeah, absolutely. So you can find me on LinkedIn is my name in Chem Echo Coma.
You can find me on Instagram at the legal storyteller. And I also have my club on um, the Stack World, which is called Legal Up. It will be moving but at the moment it's at On the Stack World. And then I have a holding page 'cause my website is under construction Dare. Storyteller uk where you can access, you can contact me if you want to have a discussion as to whether I can provide support to you.
I think there's a link to my newsletter, which is called Legal Stories and yeah, I think that's
Angela: That's about it.
Yeah.
Angela: I do like your [00:36:00] newsletter by the way. I just get these little nuggets too, of what you've been up till. You tell us a bit of some legal insight. I'm like, oh, that's quite good. And it's a nice quick read.
Love it. Thank you. Thanks for that feedback. Great, great. Oh, wonderful. Yeah. Have a great day. Thank you for joining me. Thank you. Take you been a real pleasure talking to you. Have a great day. Thank you so much. You too.
Nkem: Bye.
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